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Droroq

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Geez, I just caught up on the weekend blizzcon updates...

As some of the other posts, I have kinda mixed feelings about all the news. Lots of cool stuff to be excited about, some wtf? stuff, and more of the dumbing down the game stuff....

Here is my question, I know they mentioned that after faction change, they will open up race change as well. Sooo...

Before race changes open up, couldn't I faction change, lets say Hexalite (my undead rogue) to Alliance as Human, wait 3 days, then faction change him back as a Troll? Kinda bypassing the race change restriction (I realize this would be more $$$).

Next question...if they open up race changes, couldnt you just race change to a Goblin and have lvl 80 and bypass the whole leveling process? I can see a lot of Alliance race changing to max lvl Worgens. Or for me, I could race change Dro to Troll....bypassing the whole Troll Druid leveling thing.

That could get really messy...

*Edit: found the answer to one of my questions, once you faction change, you can only faction change back to your original race...

**Edit2: haha, found the answer to my 2nd question:
"Cataclysm was just announced so it will be awhile before we have systems fully decided upon for it, especially since the paid faction change service isn't even out yet. That said I wouldn't be surprised if there were some restrictions to avoid people making level 80s of the new races on day 1, nothing is set in stone though so we will have to wait and see. "
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Old_Man_Istvan

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IMO, and mind you I'm speculating, before coffee..... but. I dont think anythings really changed. I know that sounds crazy but really, think about this.

Ulduar contained more loot than the entire BC, why? Because all things must be equal in Blizzards idea of balance. Things must be "as good" for one as it is for every other, that also includes item availability, which is why you have a 1001 (nearly identical) items in Ulduar.

The ONLY difference after the stat changes is that your talents will tell you what your getting, and you gear will determine how much. Seriously, thats it. Its like this. Simply spending points in the Combat tree will give me flat melee damage, + hit, and ArP. The more Mastery I have, the more those go up. Including bonuses Ive gained from spending talents in other trees, like bonus poison from Assassination. Now that stuff doesnt have to be on gear and we dont have to fight about who its better for. I'll always have appropriate stats for my build.

That still leaves the "two easy" thing open, its like automatically converting the gear to whatever stats your build most needs. Which is both cool and lazy from a sandboxers perspective. It may not look the same up front, but I believe the end results will be. I wanna see how it all pans out personally. I mean, ARP in talents for Rogues but no longer on gear? Hmmm sounds like that could be pretty sweet :P

EDIT: How funny is this? You wont be calculating DPS weight for each stat, youll be calculating how much Mastery is worth based on what talents you have LOLZ
Old_Man_Istvan

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Also Im hoping they reintroduce varied weapon speeds, seems that with less complicated stats and a return to a somewhat vanilla WoW, you could have 3.3s and 3.9s.

Heres hoping.
Casca554
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Bleh, I hate shit like mastery. One stat to rule them all...

Next gear will be like this:

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Old_Man_Istvan

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Casca554 wrote:
Bleh, I hate shit like mastery. One stat to rule them all...

Next gear will be like this:

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Point taken HAHAHAHA

That thing should go "MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmHHHHMmmmmmm" when right clicked.
-Safo-

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I think this thread has too much fuck'n crying in it.

Dumbing down? You have no clue. Personally, I can't wait till they do this, so it resets all the known Theorycraft and we have to start from scratch.

You have no idea what the Raids will be like, how the mechanics will work, or anything. You sit here and kneejerk because of a few slides, which to be honest were actually pretty damn good stuff.

20,000 people watching it at BlizzCon, cheered their asses off for it... and I'm sure they all aren't casuals.
Gonza!

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Orrka wrote:
I think this thread has too much fuck'n crying in it.

Dumbing down? You have no clue. Personally, I can't wait till they do this, so it resets all the known Theorycraft and we have to start from scratch.

You have no idea what the Raids will be like, how the mechanics will work, or anything. You sit here and kneejerk because of a few slides, which to be honest were actually pretty damn good stuff.

20,000 people watching it at BlizzCon, cheered their asses off for it... and I'm sure they all aren't casuals.


I agree 100% after reading all of the stuff. What looks like dumbing down at first is actually streamlining.

Oh well. Some people are never satisfied.



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Heinekenpwns

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It's not just the expansion. It started back with the blue post saying "we will never make a raid zone as difficult as Sunwell ever again." This marked the first time I quit WoW. I came back awhile later amidst boredom and a desire to see my friends again and get more into pvp. While I pvped, I watched the decay of WoW pve up through the Crusaders' Coliseum.

All of this is merely reinstating the original blue post: "We want money; retarded 9yr olds have money; this game shall cater to retarded 9yr olds." This expansion is merely the final nail in the coffin for me. I cannot in good conscience continue to support a development team that is destroying the industry by being money-hungry bastards and shitting all over the legitimate gamers that made their game great in the first place.

I took a week to cool off and see if my feelings would change. They haven't. My account is canceled. Fuck you Blizz for relentlessly killing the game that I once loved.


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Casca554
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Orrka wrote:
I think this thread has too much fuck'n crying in it.

Dumbing down? You have no clue. Personally, I can't wait till they do this, so it resets all the known Theorycraft and we have to start from scratch.

You have no idea what the Raids will be like, how the mechanics will work, or anything. You sit here and kneejerk because of a few slides, which to be honest were actually pretty damn good stuff.

20,000 people watching it at BlizzCon, cheered their asses off for it... and I'm sure they all aren't casuals.


We'll have to see.

Like my rant in melee chat last night, I was saying that hopefully with the introduction of the Path's, the theorycraft does not disappear.

As it is, removing everything like AP / SP / Whatever leaves your class with maybe 1 main stat to stack (aside from Stamina, of course). Adding mastery into the equation which just increases everything based on your spec also removes more theorycrafting. Stack main stat and mastery, done.

I like all the other changes... revitalizing the old world, making progression possible outside of level/gear alone, bringing in more of the major plot villains. (Who the fuck is Yogg Saron? I've been fighting Deathwing's children in BRS, Ony, BWL, etc.) Grim Batol is open? HELL YEAH!


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Droroq

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"What we were finding is that in many cases things had just become so complicated that players were not making intelligent decisions based on their knowledge of how various stats benefited them."

"If you were one of those players who picked up a piece and understood how armor pen vs. attack power benefited you or whether defense was still worth collecting after you had hit crit immunity, then you were in the minority."

-Blue


I'm sorry but that is dumbing down the game.

Overall, I am excited, shit isnt gonna change, the game will still kick ass, raiding and pvp will still be fun. I will still be playing. I'm just not really behind them on some of the reasoning for the changes.
spilltray



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Yes to a degree getting rid of the need for convoluted formulas is "dumbing down" the stat allocation system, but at the same time, it sounds like between "Titan's Path" and Archeology, the talent system is going to be more complex. Add in reforging to complicate gearing decisions and we will end up with a more customizable set up than we have now.

AP and Spellpower being rolled into other stats like Agi, Str, Int, and Spi, makes sense. Now there are basically 2 separate stats that increase the same thing for melee. Condensing it just makes it easier to balance. Armor Pen is a convoluted system to figure out. But at the same time, you are going to want to balance hit, crit, mastery, expertise and haste (especially with it increasing energy/rage/focus/runes/and hopefully mana regen) will still have a similar level of complexity, especially considering the relative values of those stats will still fluctuate based on class, spec, gear level, and archeology. For tanks, getting rid of defense may seem like dumbing it down, but it also could force tanks to focus more on mitigation and threat stats rather than the obsession with reaching an arbitrary defense cap. It makes the itemization seem more "fun"

Some stats are getting dumbed down, but the charachter and talent customization it sounds like they are working towards should diversify the "cookie cutter spec" and everyone wanting the exact same BiS gear. At least that's what it seems Blizzard's goal is to me.

And for all the QQ raiding is too easy... that's what Hard Modes are for. I like everyone being able to kill Yogg (and eventually Arthas) rather than having elitists dominate the raiding landscape, but if you want to be the best and get the best gear, there are optional ways to do more. Sure maybe we've pwnd current content and maybe normal mode Collesium is a joke, but that's so everyone can see the fights have a watered down experience. Until we are pwning hard modes, with no challenge, I think any whining about "easy raid content" is a little bit short sighted and hypocritical.
Gonza!

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Droroq wrote:

I'm sorry but that is dumbing down the game.

Overall, I am excited, shit isnt gonna change, the game will still kick ass, raiding and pvp will still be fun. I will still be playing. I'm just not really behind them on some of the reasoning for the changes.



Ok sure, but I think they argued, reasonably, that it doesn't matter because most people wouldn't figure it out for themselves. They'd seek out EJ or a spreadsheet to calculate it or just ask someone what the BiS was. Most people wouldn't weigh the stats themsleves, they'd find somewhere who'd done the work already.

Eh, but I must admit I like the mathiness. Although, sometimes it's quite confounded on wether I'd do better with X amount of ArP vs Y amount of Crit or Z amount of Haste. It's certainly not something I could figure out in the time it takes to roll on an item (depending on the actual figures, class and spec, of course). Perhaps, this change will make the effect stat preferences more obvious. Meaning, it will be more complex than simply STACK AGI for PWNAGE. Instead, I can stack agi, int, stam, etc (or combination of), but the effects of my stat/gear choices will be more apparent.

So, I'll remain sceptical on this change, until I see how it plays out. We shall see.

Blizzard wrote:
I find many of these arguments to be elitist. This is not a "catering to the casuals" issue. This is an issue that even some of our most educated and math-savy players could not make gear decisions without the help of external tools. We're much less concerned about more casual players because the specific choice of upgrade will mean less for them (skill outweighs the contribution of stats for all but the absolute best players) and they often choose pieces based on things like art over stats.

I'm talking about very hardcore raiders who no longer could eyeball a piece of gear with any degree of authority. I might believe that some very few of you are so proficient with the math as to be able to eyeball the stats, but I think you are vastly overestimating the number of players who can or do. Remember, the formula to convert armor penetration into damage was so complicated that we had to take the unusual step of actually spelling out how it was calculated.

With this change will you still have to make hard choices about upgrading? Absolutely. Will there still be quasi-religious debates about which neck is best in slot for a given spec? Of course. Will you still need to understand the mechanics to make the best choice for your character? We think so. One of our overall design philosophies for WoW (and Blizzard) is to be simple but have a lot of depth. Some people mistake needless complexity for depth.

Meanwhile, we think there is a lot of benefit of getting rid of problematic stats like defense and accomplishing things like letting casters improve by focusing on throughput over mana pool
.


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The Turo wrote:
Yes to a degree getting rid of the need for convoluted formulas is "dumbing down" the stat allocation system, but at the same time, it sounds like between "Titan's Path" and Archeology, the talent system is going to be more complex. Add in reforging to complicate gearing decisions and we will end up with a more customizable set up than we have now.

AP and Spellpower being rolled into other stats like Agi, Str, Int, and Spi, makes sense. Now there are basically 2 separate stats that increase the same thing for melee. Condensing it just makes it easier to balance. Armor Pen is a convoluted system to figure out. But at the same time, you are going to want to balance hit, crit, mastery, expertise and haste (especially with it increasing energy/rage/focus/runes/and hopefully mana regen) will still have a similar level of complexity, especially considering the relative values of those stats will still fluctuate based on class, spec, gear level, and archeology. For tanks, getting rid of defense may seem like dumbing it down, but it also could force tanks to focus more on mitigation and threat stats rather than the obsession with reaching an arbitrary defense cap. It makes the itemization seem more "fun"

Some stats are getting dumbed down, but the charachter and talent customization it sounds like they are working towards should diversify the "cookie cutter spec" and everyone wanting the exact same BiS gear. At least that's what it seems Blizzard's goal is to me.

And for all the QQ raiding is too easy... that's what Hard Modes are for. I like everyone being able to kill Yogg (and eventually Arthas) rather than having elitists dominate the raiding landscape, but if you want to be the best and get the best gear, there are optional ways to do more. Sure maybe we've pwnd current content and maybe normal mode Collesium is a joke, but that's so everyone can see the fights have a watered down experience. Until we are pwning hard modes, with no challenge, I think any whining about "easy raid content" is a little bit short sighted and hypocritical.


I dunno turo, the Colosseum is what the 3rd tier of raiding in the xpack?, you'd think even normal mode has a challenge of some sort, uluduar on launch on normal mode had difficulty, until they nerfed it to shit, sure you should be able to kill bosses, but don't make it to the point that you can come in blues and the bosses just fall over aka Colosseum, because never doing the fight and coming in and pretty much 1 shotting them is retarded, yeah there hard modes, but plenty of them aren't that much harder than the original mode it just requires adjustments. yes mim hard mode is hard so is yogg +0 no doubt about it, but what they boil down to is precision, and not carrying people and adjustments. I mean if they make icecrown a push over like the Colosseum where about anyone with can face roll and kill arthas it's just sad, considering he's a big shot in the lore, unless him a hard mode only boss like algalon. to be honest bc had it right, every tier got harder (sure Most of Hyjal was trivial), wotlk so far has it "retardly easy (naxx)" "was a challange for the first month (ulduar) + some ridiculous hard modes" "face roll Colosseum" so with that in mind IC might be hard for the first month then it will be nerfed to shit, i mean the easier they make the boss the less epic it is, its pretty much here show up free epics, not like thats a bad thing for alts, but yeah i'ma stop my rant, we'll see how it pans out i guess, still placing bets on how piss poor the mage changes will be thought...
getemkitty



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my main problem with the weakening of bosses is we are losing the fun of the first kill. remember the first time we killed yogg it was fun it was cool. But it did not compare at all to oujr first archavon kill. the first time we killed kt was like woot, and thats about it. it wasnt amazing, it wasnt looked forward to, it just was. the first time we kill anubarak will not be spectacular it will just be oh what loot droped ok were done. Without a challenge leading up to a hard final boss raiding is not as fun as it ust to be. we have lost the true sence of accomplishment by downing something truely complicated. hard modes are just not the same because youve killed that boss already so many times.


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